AI는 없다, 사람이 있을 뿐 — 자론 래니어 인터뷰

StarTalk: There Is No AI Really (It’s Just People) w/ Jaron Lanier (Transcript) May 25, 2026 12:52 am May 25, 2026 12:52 am by Pangambam S Podcasts Share & Care! Facebook X Pinterest Email Editor's Note: In this special edition episode of StarTalk, host Neil deGrasse Tyson, co-host Gary O'Reilly, and comedian Negin Farsad sit down with computer scientist and "father of virtual reality" Jaron Lanier. Together, they explore the evolution of the internet, the societal impacts of social media addiction, and why we should view artificial intelligence as a human collaboration rather than an independent creature. The conversation dives deep into alternate tech business models, data dignity, and finding a constructive path forward for the future of technology. TRANSCRIPT: Introduction: Meet Jaron Lanier NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Why do UFO sightings persist? Are at least some of them figments of our imagination, or are we missing something? In my latest book, Take Me to Your Leader , I actually explore what's possible in this universe, given the universal laws of physics. If the aliens are out there, the laws of physics will dictate how they find us. I also narrated the audiobook, so I'm duly informed that the audiobook and the print version are available now wherever books are sold. This is StarTalk Special Edition, which means I got Gary O'Reilly, co-host here. Gary, how you doing, man? GARY O'REILLY: I'm good, Neil. Over in London. London though, so slightly remote. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay, only slightly. On the scale of the universe, you're right next door. I also have with me Negin Farsad. Negin, welcome back to StarTalk. NEGIN FARSAD: Hello, I'm so excited to be back. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: It's been too long, I miss you. NEGIN FARSAD: Absolutely. I have to say, you don't look a day over the last time we talked about dark matter. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay, now let me figure out how old I would need to be for that. You're a comedian, you're also a TED Fellow for social justice. That's a thing? NEGIN FARSAD: I mean, I do comedy that tries to save the world. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Okay. NEGIN FARSAD: And it's worked, guys. That's why we live in utopia. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Fake the Nation , that's the coolest title ever. NEGIN FARSAD: That's right. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: And I'll never soon forget the title of your book from a few years ago. NEGIN FARSAD: How to Make White People Laugh . Yeah. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: That's best title ever. NEGIN FARSAD: Thank you so much. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, yeah, so Gary, what have you researched for today? It's got something to do with the internet and it's going to mess up the world, something like that? Is the Internet Too Far Gone? GARY O'REILLY: Oh yeah, let's get the good stuff out. So is the internet too far gone in our lifetimes? The internet has changed from a novelty to a central influence in our lives, and now with the advent of AI, hawked as the potential doomsday for humankind. Well, is it? Isn't it? Today we're going to talk about whether that's the case, how the internet influences our world, and how we can come together and fix it or not. So, Neil, if you will introduce our guest, and I think this is just the right person to discuss this topic. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, there's a uniquely qualified person in the world to address those issues and more, and I've got him sitting right here. Jaron Lanier, dude. JARON LANIER: Hey, how are ya? NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Welcome to StarTalk. JARON LANIER: Well, you know, I think you can speak a little lower than me, but that does not mean I will not attempt it. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, we don't use the word polymath too freely today because there aren't many folks, there's so much specialization, but if I were to bring that into the 21st century, I would apply it to you. You're a computer scientist, but interdisciplinary. What's your title? Prime Unifying Scientist at Microsoft? That's a title? Is that on your business card? JARON LANIER: It actually is, yeah. Okay, it's actually a joke. It's Office of the Chief Technology Officer, Prime Unifying Scientist, so it spells out OCTOPUS. And there are several reasons for that. One is I used to study cephalopod cognition because it's absolutely fascinating. But then there's also that some accuse me of starting to look like one myself. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Oh, that happens. That can happen. JARON LANIER: That can happen. That can happen. And so between those two things, The Octopus, yes. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: I'm just impressed that that's even a title that one can ascend to. Are you going to break the mold in your— can anyone become you in this? The answer is no, just say no. JARON LANIER: Well, I will tell you one thing about my role. I have an agreement with them where I can speak my mind, including being encouraged to criticize the company itself, so long as I'm clear that I'm not speaking for Microsoft. And somehow they haven't imploded. I think it actually— I would like to see more people with that role in the tech industry. Okay, so in that sense, I don't want to be the last. I'm aware of one other maybe, who would be Vint Cerf over at Google, but I think we're the only two. And we really desperately need more of us. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Because you know when someone has— you know where they're clamming shut on what you really want them to say about what they're doing. You know it in an interview, right? JARON LANIER: Yeah, and in Silicon Valley, that's like 90% of the time. The Father of Virtual Reality NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Yeah, yeah. So you're considered the father of virtual reality, in part because you even coined the term? JARON LANIER: Yeah, okay, look, I was young, all right? I think there's— NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: You're responsible. NEGIN FARSAD: Were you on drugs, maybe? Was there that involved? JARON LANIER: I've never used drugs, and I blame virtual reality for that. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Oh, it's served that role. NEGIN FARSAD: You haven't needed it, yeah. JARON LANIER: Virtual reality has served that role. And I live in Santa Cruz, so I'm in violation of a number of local ordinances by not using drugs, but somehow it just hasn't happened. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: And you've got a book from a few years ago, 10 Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts . JARON LANIER: Yes, I do. NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: That was bold back then, and it's probably even more significant today. JARON LANIER: Well, you know, the thing about that book is that high schoolers are forced to read it. My own daughter was forced to read it. And so whenever I'm in an airport, there are all these high school kids who come up to me and say, "We were forced to read your book." And all I can tell them is, "Well, you must have done something very bad. And I hope you learned your lesson." NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: That's the only way to reply to that comment, for sure. So if you started virtual reality, what were you thinking behind it? Did you think that other people would be not content with their own reality and you have to create one for them? Virtual Reality as a Palette Freshener JARON LANIER: Oh God, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Explicitly not. No, here's my thought about it. There were two reasons to want to do virtual reality. One was for the extraordinary weird ways that I hope people will eventually start connecting with each other with it, and for interesting experiences in art. I still love all that. Not that the industry's done much of that. But the other reason is that, you know, we're born into this world and we get so used to it that we don't appreciate it. And when you have a vivid enough alternative for a moment, and then you come back to this, normal reality suddenly takes on the amazing qualities it always had, but you can sort of become inured to it. So like, you put on the goggles and then you take them off. One of the things I used to love to do when VR was very new back in like the '80s or something, I'd put a flower or a co